You are at netAirspace : Forum : Air and Space Forums : Civil Aviation

The Never Ending BER Thread

All about Airlines and Airliners.
 

Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 May 12, 10:29Post
Surprise, surprise...

The opening of Berlin's new airport, scheduled for June 3, will be delayed due to problems with fire security, German media reported on Tuesday, citing local government sources.

The reports did not give a new opening date for Berlin-Brandenburg airport, which aims initially to attract up to 27 million passengers annually.

The operator of the new airport did not immediately confirm the reports but said it would hold a news conference at 1300 local time (1100 GMT). National carrier Lufthansa also could not immediately confirm the reports.

Source / full article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/ ... GV20120508

The press conference is scheduled to begin in 30 minutes, I will keep you posted.

Local press here reports that the reason for delay is shortcomings in the fire protecting and accident response measures. The delay is expected to take several weeks.

Supposedly, TXL will thus remain operational for the time being.
Last edited by Zak on 26 Sep 15, 11:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Thread title changed, was originally "BER Opening Delayed Over Fire Safety Concerns"
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)

Amazon.com

First Class members don't see ads. Upgrade!
 
cornish (Certified Expert - Aviation Economics & Founding Member) 08 May 12, 10:46Post
No surprise to me either.

On a related note, I wonder if all those many LH services newly announced will be changed to Germanwings in time for opening, as per LH's likely new strategy for short haul routes out of all bases except FRA and MUC.

I guess it will mean increased Germanwings for you to at HAM, Stefan?
trekster 08 May 12, 10:50Post
They are going to have to let all the airlines know ASAP! I know comms have already been out a while at my airline about the change in airport. Not pod news coupled with the issues with check in etc.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 May 12, 11:09Post
trekster wrote:They are going to have to let all the airlines know ASAP! I know comms have already been out a while at my airline about the change in airport. Not pod news coupled with the issues with check in etc.

I would be very surprised if this was actual news to the airlines - at least LH and AB.

But then, it's Berlin, so you never know. :))

cornish wrote:I guess it will mean increased Germanwings for you to at HAM, Stefan?

It looks like it, though LH's past strategy with 4U's presence at HAM can be called undecisive at best. A couple of years ago, we had lots of 4U routes from here, making HAM a small 4U hub.

But then, they realized that they could not compete with AB and LH mainline here, and thus left HAM entirely. That must have been some 2 or 3 years ago, IIRC. They basically moved all routes over to HAJ, in an attempt to outperform AB there.

Last year, they then came back here, offering a new service to Pristina from HAM. Rumor was that more routes should be added, and 4U aircraft show up here every once in a while, but so far, no new routes have been announced (or at least none that I am aware of).

Some people here still hope that LH will start offering a few long haul routes from HAM, though, personally, I don't see this happening any time soon. With the recently announced short-haul strategy, it could indeed mean less LH and more 4U presence at HAM.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 May 12, 11:12Post
I just read that TXL could remain open until latest end of the year.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
cornish (Certified Expert - Aviation Economics & Founding Member) 08 May 12, 11:16Post
Zak wrote:It looks like it, though LH's past strategy with 4U's presence at HAM can be called undecisive at best. A couple of years ago, we had lots of 4U routes from here, making HAM a small 4U hub.


Well all CGN and STR flights into LHR have been moved over to 4U - making a nice change from an enthusiasts point of view given how many LH flights we have. They have their own big check in area in T1 now, over close to where domestic check-ins used to be. I'm expecting more to come.
JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 08 May 12, 11:28Post
How can 'fire security' problems cause such a massive, and expensive, delay? Presumably some of the buildings have failed fire safety checks?
A million great ideas...
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 May 12, 11:42Post
JLAmber wrote:How can 'fire security' problems cause such a massive, and expensive, delay? Presumably some of the buildings have failed fire safety checks?

The short answer to this is: it's Berlin.

Berlin's mayor Klaus Wowereit is chairman of the supervisory board of the airport operating company. He is the person who was responsible for the closure and immediate removal of THF airport.

He has a long history of wasting money in a spectacular fashion, making Berlin the most bankrupt of all German states.

As for the fire safety checks, the airport operator had announced on April 24th that they had applied for all operating licenses, and were positive to get them within a matter of 2-3 weeks.

But it looks as if the safety installations have failed even most basic tests. E.g. the ventilating system of the terminal building would not have worked in case of a fire.

In the end, this looks to be the result of botched and sloppy work, that will now cost the taxpayer dozens of millions of Euro.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 May 12, 11:48Post
Btw, please keep in mind that the now cancelled opening date of 03 June represented a delay of more than half a year already. Initially, the planning was to open the new airport by November 2011, and close TXL by end of 2011.

The new delay is also bad news for HT-ETNW and others who booked special flights from TXL to BER for that night. The operators of these flights will now have to look for new solutions as well.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 08 May 12, 12:06Post
All this sounds so familiar, the builders weren't anything to do with Wembley stadium by any chance? You would hope that such a massive and prestigious project had been properly managed - patching things up before the airport has even opened will only lead to more problems surfacing later.

Zak wrote:The new delay is also bad news for HT-ETNW and others who booked special flights from TXL to BER for that night. The operators of these flights will now have to look for new solutions as well.


Looking at the official TXL site, last flights are still showing as 2nd June. Just the cost of re-allocating flights, altering flight plans, logistical arrangements etc. must be immense, and then there's the cost of delivering a working airport at BER. I suspect somebody is going to be spending a lot of time in the Bundestag explaining themself.
A million great ideas...
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 May 12, 12:08Post
JLAmber wrote:Looking at the official TXL site, last flights are still showing as 2nd June. Just the cost of re-allocating flights, altering flight plans, logistical arrangements etc. must be immense, and then there's the cost of delivering a working airport at BER.

According to official statements from the airlines, this indeed did hit them completely by surprise, and they have no Plan B yet.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
helvknight (Founding Member) 08 May 12, 12:36Post
What about TXL? When does its licence expire?
Hire Engineers to drive the vision and execute a plan. Hire MBAs to shuffle the papers and work in sales. Hire Accountants to manage your staff working a viable livable wage, and never have either an Accountant or an MBA run your company. - Steve Jobs
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 May 12, 12:41Post
helvknight wrote:What about TXL? When does its licence expire?

By end of 2012. If BER isn't ready by then, then S will seriously HTF.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Thorben 08 May 12, 15:22Post
Yeah baby, more time to spot at the great spotting location TXL, plus more chances for the last flight from that beloved airport. :))

Zak wrote:
JLAmber wrote:How can 'fire security' problems cause such a massive, and expensive, delay? Presumably some of the buildings have failed fire safety checks?

The short answer to this is: it's Berlin.


Yeah, I think we should be glad then it is not Hamburg, where building a minor project such as a new philharmonic hall is now five years behind schedule and saw a cost expansion from € 77 million to € 476 million. {laugh}
I demand a fifth Emirates (EK) destination in Germany: Berlin, coolest and biggest city.
AndesSMF (Founding Member) 08 May 12, 16:37Post
From a construction standpoint, failing fire checks can be a really, really serious problem. I want to hear more about this situation before I can even comment more, but at least here in the US, the electrical codes are written by the National Fire Protection Association, FYI.
Einstein said two things were infinite; the universe, and stupidity. He wasn't sure about the first, but he was certain about the second.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 May 12, 19:39Post
Thorben wrote:
Zak wrote:The short answer to this is: it's Berlin.


Yeah, I think we should be glad then it is not Hamburg, where building a minor project such as a new philharmonic hall is now five years behind schedule and saw a cost expansion from € 77 million to € 476 million. {laugh}

Totally off-topic. Moooods! :))

(I knew my Berlin statement would backfire, and I also knew it would involve the Elbphilharmonie... ;) )

AndesSMF wrote:From a construction standpoint, failing fire checks can be a really, really serious problem. I want to hear more about this situation before I can even comment more, but at least here in the US, the electrical codes are written by the National Fire Protection Association, FYI.

From what I read, the problem was that the inspection authorities could not check the terminal building for fire safety, as there we no documents available on which basis they could have carried out their mandatory inspection.

No inspection, no license. No license, no opening.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
AndesSMF (Founding Member) 08 May 12, 19:55Post
The airport's technical chief, Manfred Koertgen, said fire safety installations - notably smoke extractors - were in place he doubted that they could be operational, or passengers evacuated safely in an emergency, by the June 3 deadline.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/0 ... 0N20120508

Smoke extractors are exactly that, they get rid of smoke in order to safely evacuate a building and keep visibility to allow it to happen. Why they aren't operational yet is a different question.
Einstein said two things were infinite; the universe, and stupidity. He wasn't sure about the first, but he was certain about the second.
Thorben 13 May 12, 21:41Post
Zak wrote:(I knew my Berlin statement would backfire, and I also knew it would involve the Elbphilharmonie... ;)


Yep, I am in Hamburg often enough to know about things like that. :)) But let's be honest, the information management is a catastrophe and Wowereit and Platzeck have absolutely no clue about the project and how to run it.

I was in BER today, the apron was open to the public and one could walk around the main terminal. Great opportunity to see the airport from a perspective that normally only some of those working there will have in the future. My impressions go hand-in-hand with media reports. The fire protection system was only an excuse, there are many other things left to do. This is still a big construction site and I doubt they could open it within three weeks, even with the fire system protection working. I heard a lot of cynical comments from other visitors. But let's see what date will be named this week.

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/ber ... 32845.html
I demand a fifth Emirates (EK) destination in Germany: Berlin, coolest and biggest city.
PlymSpotter (Photo Quality Screener & Founding Member) 13 May 12, 23:34Post
AndesSMF wrote:From a construction standpoint, failing fire checks can be a really, really serious problem. I want to hear more about this situation before I can even comment more, but at least here in the US, the electrical codes are written by the National Fire Protection Association, FYI.

What concerns me is whether this stems from a design, manufacturing or construction issue. If it's the former, well - how long is a piece of string...
Zak wrote:
helvknight wrote:What about TXL? When does its licence expire?

By end of 2012. If BER isn't ready by then, then S will seriously HTF.

I'm curious as to what 'expire' means? Is it when the annual renewal is due, or is it linked to something else? I can't see anything obviously wrong with the airport layout causing it to invalidate a license.


Dan :)
Thorben 14 May 12, 10:00Post
PlymSpotter wrote:
Zak wrote:
helvknight wrote:What about TXL? When does its licence expire?

By end of 2012. If BER isn't ready by then, then S will seriously HTF.

I'm curious as to what 'expire' means? Is it when the annual renewal is due, or is it linked to something else? I can't see anything obviously wrong with the airport layout causing it to invalidate a license.


Considering there is no real plan what do to with TXL after its closure (except that it will still have government flights), considering that nothing has been done at THF so far (it was closed in 2008), I believe there is no problem at all keeping TXL running until BER opens, even if this means years.
I demand a fifth Emirates (EK) destination in Germany: Berlin, coolest and biggest city.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 17 May 12, 09:50Post
It looks very much like the license for TXL will have to be extended. Reuters reports that BER will not be able to open before March 2013 (as mentioned in today's NAS Daily).
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 17 May 12, 11:13Post
Zak wrote:It looks very much like the license for TXL will have to be extended. Reuters reports that BER will not be able to open before March 2013 (as mentioned in today's NAS Daily).


Ouch! Presumably TXL will have to go through the full range of assessments (fire, H&S, insurance, transport etc.) for 3 months of operation, which isn't going to be cheap at all and will add to the operational cost stated at around 15m euros a month.

What I would love to know is what work actually needs re-doing at BER, and who's footing the bill for the whole debacle.
A million great ideas...
Thorben 18 May 12, 17:57Post
March 17th 2013. Good for the TXL spotters. {thumbsup}

Airlines will have to live with it. Delays in such a big project are not un-common, that's why companies have risk-management divisions.
I demand a fifth Emirates (EK) destination in Germany: Berlin, coolest and biggest city.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 19 May 12, 03:03Post
Thorben wrote:Airlines will have to live with it. Delays in such a big project are not un-common, that's why companies have risk-management divisions.

Delays are not uncommon, indeed. What is uncommon, however, is annoucning a delay of 9 months, 3 weeks prior to the planned opening. They need almost another year to finish the damn thing, and notice that only when the first aircraft are already on approach?

During my trip to Asia this week, I was mocked by quite a few people about this. Comments ranged from "did you hire Nigerian project planners?" to "you should have had the Turks build the airport, then it would be ready by now". All coming from Asians who have studied in Germany, most of them Berlin.

And airlines will certainly not just have to live with it. They had valid contracts with the airport operators, that now have not been met by the latter. They will make them pay for that. Which wouldn't be so bad, if it wouldn't once again be the tax payer who has to pay the bill.

And Wowereit keeps talking while saying nothing at all.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Nosedive 19 May 12, 08:24Post
Zak wrote:
Thorben wrote:Airlines will have to live with it. Delays in such a big project are not un-common, that's why companies have risk-management divisions.

Delays are not uncommon, indeed. What is uncommon, however, is annoucning a delay of 9 months, 3 weeks prior to the planned opening. They need almost another year to finish the damn thing, and notice that only when the first aircraft are already on approach?

During my trip to Asia this week, I was mocked by quite a few people about this. Comments ranged from "did you hire Nigerian project planners?" to "you should have had the Turks build the airport, then it would be ready by now". All coming from Asians who have studied in Germany, most of them Berlin.

And airlines will certainly not just have to live with it. They had valid contracts with the airport operators, that now have not been met by the latter. They will make them pay for that. Which wouldn't be so bad, if it wouldn't once again be the tax payer who has to pay the bill.

And Wowereit keeps talking while saying nothing at all.



Pfft.... Stop trying to out Denver, Denver
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/03/us/de ... itely.html

Amazon.com

First Class members don't see ads. Upgrade!
 
 

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

LEFT

RIGHT
CONTENT