You are at netAirspace : Forum : Air and Space Forums : Civil Aviation

Ethiopian B737 MAX 8 Crashes On Departure

All about Airlines and Airliners.
 

miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 12:26Post
As if EASA would ever ground Airbus. This is hysteria and baseless without having factual evidence that the MAX is defective.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen

Amazon.com

First Class members don't see ads. Upgrade!
 
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 13:35Post
miamiair wrote:As if EASA would ever ground Airbus.

They probably wouldn't. Which is as questionable as the FAA tiptoeing around the elephant in the room.

miamiair wrote:This is hysteria and baseless without having factual evidence that the MAX is defective.

We have 2 strikingly similar fatal crashes within a short period of time. And several MAX pilots - including US ones - complaining about Boeing's inadequate documentation of new features.

I don't believe that the MAX is suffering from problems that cannot be fixed. But as I wrote before, it's a common procedure in civil aviation to err on the side of caution.

Plus, it's not just EASA. Pretty much every aviation authority outside of North America decided to ground the MAX.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 14:30Post
Ehtiopian Airlines said they will not send CVR and FDR to the USA for analysis, but rather to a European country they will nominate today or tomorrow.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 13 Mar 19, 14:42Post
I'm a bit too young to remember what the fallout was from the 737 Classics (733, 734, 735) rudder malfunctions that caused several crashes in the early 90s...

Was it similar to this?
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
tangoscar 13 Mar 19, 14:48Post
Zak wrote:
miamiair wrote:As if EASA would ever ground Airbus.

They probably wouldn't. Which is as questionable as the FAA tiptoeing around the elephant in the room.

miamiair wrote:This is hysteria and baseless without having factual evidence that the MAX is defective.

We have 2 strikingly similar fatal crashes within a short period of time. And several MAX pilots - including US ones - complaining about Boeing's inadequate documentation of new features.

I don't believe that the MAX is suffering from problems that cannot be fixed. But as I wrote before, it's a common procedure in civil aviation to err on the side of caution.

Plus, it's not just EASA. Pretty much every aviation authority outside of North America decided to ground the MAX.


Well said. There have been groundings for way less than the MAX issue. Having worked with various Chinese operators for 10+ years now I am not surprised that the CAAC was the one authority to kick off the wave. Last year they grounded all aircraft equipped with our PW1100 engines and also rejected new deliveries for a much lesser issue. It also doesn't surprise me that the US based carriers aren't opting for the "better safe than sorry" approach .
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 14:59Post
There is also an economical component here. Most non-US airlines that grounded their MAX fleets only have a handful of airframes. US and Canadian airlines have a lot more already, making it harder for them to replace them.

What airline(s) are operating the 22 airframes that GECAS received so far? I know that Smartwings is one of them, but they only have 7.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
mhodgson (ATC & Photo Quality Screener & Founding Member) 13 Mar 19, 16:00Post
Canada have now also banned the 737-MAX from their airspace based on "new data" according to their transport minister.

https://twitter.com/HowardSlutsken/stat ... 9780327424
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 16:01Post
Zak wrote:They probably wouldn't. Which is as questionable as the FAA tiptoeing around the elephant in the room.


DC-10, 787???
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
HT-ETNW 13 Mar 19, 16:03Post
Zak wrote:What airline(s) are operating the 22 airframes that GECAS received so far? I know that Smartwings is one of them, but they only have 7.

SmartWings
Jet Airways
Okay Airways
Hainan Airlines
Lucky Air
GOL
Fuzhou Airlines
Southwest Airlines

Source: Planespotters.net
-HT
Use your time wisely; remember that today is the first day of the rest of your life.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 16:35Post
miamiair wrote:
Zak wrote:They probably wouldn't. Which is as questionable as the FAA tiptoeing around the elephant in the room.


DC-10, 787???

With the 787, after the first 2 battery incidents, the head of the FAA stated:
So far, nothing we found suggests [the 787] is not safe.
Only after 3 more incidents in the following days, they finally grounded the type. Authorities from other countries had already acted by then.

As it turned out, the 787 was indeed not safe back then, even though the FAA was not convinced after 2 incidents. Just saying.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Click Click D'oh (Photo Quality Screener & Founding Member) 13 Mar 19, 17:10Post
The Ethiopian pilots had undergone the MCAS training prior to the incident

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/af ... 81c7083173

I have serious doubts the second incident is MCAS related. Too many things have to line up, including have a maintenance issue that would have prevented the jet from being dispatched (unless you are Lion Air) and having a crew that doesn't use the trim controls while hand flying the jet. I get how Lion crashed the jet. They're Lion. Ethiopian? And right after the training? Nah. I think something else brought that jet down.
We sleep peacefully in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 13 Mar 19, 17:32Post
Insert picture of gremlin plaguing planes here...
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 18:48Post
And the 737 MAX is grounded in the US as well.
According to various news sources, by decree of President Trump.

As per CNN:
President Trump, speaking Wednesday afternoon at the White House, announced that the US would be issuing an "emergency order to ground all 737 Max 8 and the 737 Max 9, and planes associated with that line."

He added that both the FAA and Boeing were "in agreement with the action," and any planes currently in the air would continue to their destination where they will be grounded.

"Pilots have been notified, airlines have been all notified. Airlines are agreeing with this. The safety of the American people and all people is our paramount concern," the President said.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 13 Mar 19, 19:02Post
Ouch for WN.
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 13 Mar 19, 19:03Post
Lucas wrote:Ouch for WN.


Yup, they had MX issues last month.

AA can't be too happy either. . . .
Armor. M60A1, M60A3, M1, M1A1, Master Gunner, CSM - Best Job I Ever Had
DXing 13 Mar 19, 23:00Post
And this should about do it since Canada grounded them earlier in the day..

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-gr ... smsnnews11

U.S. joins other nations in grounding 737 MAX jets after second crash

"The agency made this decision as a result of the data gathering process and new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today," the FAA said in a statement, shortly after U.S. President Donald Trump announced the planes would be grounded.

"This evidence, together with newly refined satellite data available to FAA this morning, led to this decision."

The grounding will remain in effect as the FAA investigates.
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 14 Mar 19, 00:24Post
It's a weird thing to behold.
Attachments
3 13 19 523pm azt 737 max airborne.jpg
3 13 19 523pm azt 737 max airborne.jpg (117 KiB) Viewed 161 times
DXing 14 Mar 19, 00:46Post
I still think this is going to come down to training more so than an inherently dangerous plane. In the Indoesian crash, the previous crew had documented in the write up how they had turned off the auto trim and stopped the nose from diving. The crew involved in the crash didn't do that. I'm willing to bet something similar happened on the ET crash, although in reality there was only one professional pilot on the flight deck. 250 hours total time shouldn't get you anywhere near the right seat of a technologically advanced turbine powered aircraft. In any event, if it was a fault in the MCAS system, thanks the previous accident the ET crew should have been well aware of what was required to regain control, if it indeed was the MCAS system causing the problem which is still to be determined.
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 14 Mar 19, 21:05Post
Zak wrote:
miamiair wrote:As if EASA would ever ground Airbus.

They probably wouldn't. Which is as questionable as the FAA tiptoeing around the elephant in the room.


The EASA absolutely would ground an Airbus type(s) if they thought they were a danger. Believe me, they have absolutely no sense of nationalist loyalty. I checked thoroughly with the right people before I responded but have it confirmed that the EASA have issued two 7 day compliance notices to Airbus in the past, meaning they were a week away from grounding type(s) that had an issue, not that had already had accidents.

Had the EASA been around at the time they would certainly have grounded the A320 in its infancy due to the metric/imperial issue (the DGAC took care of this at the time) and the A321-100 when the CAA initially refused certification due to a cracking issue with a critical component.

miamiair wrote:This is hysteria and baseless without having factual evidence that the MAX is defective


*Ahem* Did something change your mind on this?

GQfluffy wrote:I'm a bit too young to remember what the fallout was from the 737 Classics (733, 734, 735) rudder malfunctions that caused several crashes in the early 90s...

Was it similar to this?


It could well be, although I suspect this is software rather than hardware. IIRC, the 737 classic rudder issues were down to the wrong spec of servo being fitted to the rudder controls and a few of them going pop mid-flight.
A million great ideas...
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 15 Mar 19, 05:42Post
Be interesting to see if they have similar causes.
Attachments
untitled.jpg
untitled.jpg (123.68 KiB) Viewed 110 times
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 15 Mar 19, 12:33Post
I'm following a German Twitter discussion atm, where a former engineer claims that the MCAS system on the MAX is wired to only one of the AoA sensors. Meaning if that sensor fails, the MCAS will inevitably fail along with it.

If that is true, then a lot of people will have a lot of questions to answer.

Or, as he put it: "People who suggest, plan, build or approve a solution like this shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a job in civil aviation."

I cannot say how reliable that source is, though.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Click Click D'oh (Photo Quality Screener & Founding Member) 15 Mar 19, 13:37Post
Lucas wrote:Be interesting to see if they have similar causes.



These don't look the same to me. The vertical speed graphs on the right tell different stories. The Ethiopian graph shows climb, level off, climb, level off, climb, level off.. then the first descent at just before 0840. The Lion Air graph shows a repeated pattern of climbing and descending.

The thing that catches my eye the most is on the Ethiopian altitude graph where the plane drops about 200 feet right after departure... before any apparent climb.
We sleep peacefully in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf
paul mcallister 15 Mar 19, 18:12Post
Those graphs don`t show much really,other than the graphs are not the shape you would expect from a normally functioning aircraft.

There are a few peaks and troughs in similar places,the Lion Air one certainly seems much more erratic.

What I find quite shocking is the unwillingness of Boeing to issue a grounding of the aircraft,and that it took a Presidential degree from Donald Trump to do so.
A man who not that long ago was having many in congress doubt his sanity. {boggled}
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 15 Mar 19, 19:24Post
That's not the narrative I heard. From what I read, Boeing had asked Washington and the FAA to ground the type, after satellite data from the ET crash had become available. Which would seem the more common approach anyway. It's usually not the manufacturer that issues a grounding, it's the national authorities.

We can discuss if the FAA should have acted a day earlier, but as far as I am concerned, this seems pretty moot now. Right now, the key question is what exactly contributed to these crashes, and if any design changes need to be made.

CVR and FDR have arrived in France yesterday. Ethiopia had initially asked the German BFU, but they declined as they lacked the proper equipment for this type. French BEA then agreed to inspect the black boxes.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
airtrainer 15 Mar 19, 20:24Post
Boeing 737 Max Planes Could Take Six Months to Fix, Cost More Than $500 Million, Analysts Say
Boeing could need between three and six months to fix and install new software on its 737 Max aircraft, following the move by the U.S. and other countries to ground the planes this week. The repairs could cost Boeing at least $500 million and delay deliveries of new planes on order, analysts estimate.
President Trump grounded all of Boeing’s 737 Max aircraft in the U.S. Wednesday, after the crash involving one of the planes Sunday in Ethiopia, killing all 157 people on board.

Link
Sir, would you like chicken or pasta ?

Join the netAirspace community!

Come on in and see what you've been missing!
• Join us in the forums
• Share your photos
• Earn netAirspace Miles
Register now and get
1 month Business Class
membership FREE!
 
 

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

LEFT

RIGHT
CONTENT