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Ethiopian B737 MAX 8 Crashes On Departure

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Zak (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 11:11Post
Updated grounding list (based on a quick internet research, may be incomplete or partially incorrect):

Airlines and regulators that grounded their 7M8 fleets:

Aerolineas Argentinas
Aeromexico
Cayman Airways
Comair
Ethiopian Airlines
GOL Linhas Aéreas
MIAT Mongolian Airlines
Royal Air Maroc
Silk Air

China:
    9 Air
    Air China
    China Eastern
    China Southern
    Fuzhou Airlines
    Hainan Airlines
    Kunming Airlines
    Lucky Air
    OKAir
    Shandong Airlines
    Shanghai Airlines
    Shenzhen Airlines
    Xiamen Air

Indonesia:
    Garuda Indonesia
    Lionair

Countries that banned all 7M8 operations within their airspace:

Australia
China
Indonesia
Singapore
South Korea

India decreed that only pilots with at least 1,000 hours on type (500 for f/o) are allowed to operate 7M8 in Indian airspace.


Airlines and authorities that consider grounding the 7M8:

FlyDubai
Indian Directorate General of Civil Aviation (Spicejet, Jet Airways)
TuiFly (will receive first airframes in April and plan to utilize it)


Airlines that explicitly confirmed they will continue to operate their 7M8:

Air Canada
Norwegian
S7 Airlines (will re-train crews)
Spicejet
TuiFly
WestJet

For all other operators, I did not find any public statements.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)

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ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 13:46Post
Add the UK to that list... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47536502

The UK's Civil Aviation Authority has banned the Boeing 737 MAX from operating in or over UK airspace "as a precautionary measure".

The decision comes after an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing Max 8 crashed on Sunday, killing 157 people on board, the second fatal accident involving that model in less than five months

The UK joins Malaysia, Singapore, China and Australia, in banning the aircraft.

The CAA said the directive would remain in place until further notice.

Tui Airways and Norwegian both operate the Boeing Max 8 in the UK as part of their fleets.

"The UK Civil Aviation Authority has been closely monitoring the situation, however, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace," a CAA statement said.
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 14:04Post
Talk about knee-jerk reaction...

MCAS explained here.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 12 Mar 19, 14:48Post
ANCFlyer wrote:
PA110 wrote:I'm on one in 3 weeks. Am I worried? No.

{check} ORD-MCO AA.



Even 1st is a rip-off of highway-robbery proportions with the garbage interior that AA installed in the B38Ms.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 15:14Post
Lucas wrote:Even 1st is a rip-off of highway-robbery proportions with the garbage interior that AA installed in the B38Ms.

If you're planning on squeezing into those lavs, take Vaseline. MCAS? Minuscule Cramped Awkward Sh*tters. Should ban those AA birds on human rights grounds. {crazy}
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 15:18Post
Germany banned the 737 MAX 8 as well.

TuiFly and Norwegian also took back their earlier statements that they intend to utilize their Max 8 fleets. Both airlines announced the type will be grounded until further notice.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
ShyFlyer (Founding Member) 12 Mar 19, 15:46Post
miamiair wrote:Talk about knee-jerk reaction...


The reactions on Social Media and "person on the street" on TV are as much entertaining as they are infuriating. These numbnuts couldn't identify a MAX8 from a from a line up that only included the aircraft, a box of dirt, and a handful of pocket lint yet they are now aircraft certification experts. {sarcastic}


Reading the link, I found this interesting:
Screen Shot 2019-03-12 at 9.38.53 AM.png
Screen Shot 2019-03-12 at 9.38.53 AM.png (67.86 KiB) Viewed 186 times


If the MCAS is at the heart of these two crashes, then it sounds more like a documentation and training issue than a design flaw. It would also explain why the more prolific (and experienced) operators haven't seen an issue with the aircraft.
The Original Peruvian Outlaw ©
JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 12 Mar 19, 15:57Post
miamiair wrote:Talk about knee-jerk reaction...

MCAS explained here.


I was with you until:

ShanwickOceanic wrote:Add the UK to that list.


Zak wrote:Germany banned the 737 MAX 8 as well.


The CAA & LBA don't do knee-jerk reactions and have clearly taken the time to properly consider their response.
A million great ideas...
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 12 Mar 19, 16:37Post
I agree with JL. Everyone who wants to fly it can and I don't think that they're even irrational. It's something that I can avoid with no issues, so I will, which I also don't think it's irrational. Especially on AA, which was worse than Frontier.

Les Abend wrote up an article and ended it like this:

As for the question so many of you are probably asking: Would I fly on a 737 MAX? Yes, in the United States -- but I can't deny my comfort level would be low.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 17:54Post
Assuming the FDR is undamaged, how long would it take to get it from that smoking hole to a lab and get some preliminary info out to the relevant authorities? Too soon yet?

Would I fly on a 737 MAX? Yes, in the United States

An intriguing conclusion. An assumption that the rest of them are flown by untrained yokels, or do magic freedom eagles appear and lift the nose back up?
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 18:07Post
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47536502

EASA also bans 737 MAX from European airspace.
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 12 Mar 19, 18:31Post
ShanwickOceanic wrote:Assuming the FDR is undamaged, how long would it take to get it from that smoking hole to a lab and get some preliminary info out to the relevant authorities? Too soon yet?

Would I fly on a 737 MAX? Yes, in the United States

An intriguing conclusion. An assumption that the rest of them are flown by untrained yokels, or do magic freedom eagles appear and lift the nose back up?



Given Abend's flying history and retirement as a 777 captain, I expect that his perception is colored by the high-time co-pilots that he's used to. Not that such is necessarily relevant at all. If WN had packed in 2 B38Ms in the same period of time, you know that people would be losing their ever-loving minds.

Also, Superman saves falling planes. You're confusing your Americana with your Lord of the Rings! :))
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 20:26Post
So Boeing added a feature that interferes with the nose trim, and decided not to document the feature (including how to override it), in order not to overwhelm pilots.

Did they not take into account that the system can malfunction because of faulty sensors?

In the case of LionAir, the airline takes a big share of the blame because they knew the sensors were faulty, and still allowed the plane to operate. Yet still, this would not necessarily have led to a crash, had the crew known how to respond to the situation.

In the case of Ethiopian, yes, the f/o was a greenhorn. Yet the captain was not, and he was the pilot flying.

Boeing's biggest problem is that they already acknowledged the need for a software update before the ET crash. Their marketing approach of labelling it as "making an already safe system even safer" won't fool anybody. Calling a system "safe" that played a vital role in 2 fatal crashes seems a bit cynical anyway, to say the least.

Yes, other crews may have been able to avoid both crashes. Still, Boeing made a design decision here that raises a lot of questions. Until these questions have been answered, it is a common procedure in civil aviation, when in doubt, to err on the side of caution.

Would I fly the MAX 8 tomorrow? Yes, if I had to. The awareness raised by the 2 incidents should be big enough for crews to be prepared for dealing with an MCAS failure, should it occur.

But to assume this could never have happened in the US does seem a tad presumptuous to me. Crashes and accidents involving human error are not unheard of in the US.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 20:47Post
Smartwings seems to struggle with the EASA regulations.

As of right now, a Smartwings flight from DXB to PRG turned around overhead the Black Sea.
https://fr24.com/TVS1201/1fc767d2

Another Smartwings flight from SID to PRG is flying eastbound across the North African coastline.
https://fr24.com/TVS4160/1fc76ab3

Looks like someone didn't get the memo.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
HT-ETNW 12 Mar 19, 21:48Post
Zak wrote:Smartwings seems to struggle with the EASA regulations.

As of right now, a Smartwings flight from DXB to PRG turned around overhead the Black Sea.
https://fr24.com/TVS1201/1fc767d2

Another Smartwings flight from SID to PRG is flying eastbound across the North African coastline.
https://fr24.com/TVS4160/1fc76ab3

Looks like someone didn't get the memo.

Both aircraft are circling at 34000 resp. 37000 ft. Looks like they are awaiting decisions where to land.
Still the first one off Istanbul may opt to divert to any airport in Turkey (IST, SAW, ...), the one off Malta now is heading back west, probably towards TUN, MIR or NBE, the nearest suitable airports outside the EASA-ruled area.
-HT
Use your time wisely; remember that today is the first day of the rest of your life.
airtrainer 12 Mar 19, 21:50Post
I had a look at FR24 a few hours ago and saw some MAX still flying over Europe, could it be that Airlines were allowed to return the aircraft to their respective bases to ground them there ? I wonder how flights operations will be affected tomorrow...
Sir, would you like chicken or pasta ?
JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 12 Mar 19, 22:19Post
airtrainer wrote:I had a look at FR24 a few hours ago and saw some MAX still flying over Europe, could it be that Airlines were allowed to return the aircraft to their respective bases to ground them there ?


You're correct, the EASA allowed 6 hours from the time of the Europe-wide banning for all 738M to be grounded, meaning all 737MAX aircraft had to be on the ground or out of European airspace by 1900UTC. Only one aircraft - Smartwings OK-SWB flying DXB-PRG failed to make it in time and was forced to turn back somewhere over the Black Sea, eventually returning to DXB some 6 hours after leaving there.

https://www.facebook.com/airlivenews/ph ... =3&theater
A million great ideas...
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 22:24Post
2 Smartwings Max 8 were affected.

OK-SWA, enroute SID-PRG, is landing in TUN right now.
OK-SWB, enroute DXB-PRG, is landing in ESB right now.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
airtrainer 12 Mar 19, 22:46Post
A6-FMF from flydubai just departed from HEL according to FR24, strange...
Sir, would you like chicken or pasta ?
JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 12 Mar 19, 22:54Post
Zak wrote:2 Smartwings Max 8 were affected.

OK-SWA, enroute SID-PRG, is landing in TUN right now.
OK-SWB, enroute DXB-PRG, is landing in ESB right now.


I stand corrected. That's 20% of Smartwings fleet grounded and 10% of their pax capacity that will need retrieving once this is resolved. That's going to hurt them, I can see Boeing speaking to a lot of lawyers in the near future.

airtrainer wrote:A6-FMF from flydubai just departed from HEL according to FR24, strange...


Under a special, previously unused, flight code. I suspect it's empty and under ferry flight conditions to avoid the EASA directive.
A million great ideas...
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 12 Mar 19, 22:56Post
HEL's departure board shows no flight to Dubai, so I guess it is a ferry flight.

There also is a TuiFly Nordic Max 8 (SE-RNA) that just turned on its beacon, I suppose this will be a ferry flight as well.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 08:49Post
The air is getting thinner for Boeing. The Dallas Morning News report that also US pilots complained about the Max 8, using rather strong words:
Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash that killed 157 people, an investigation by The Dallas Morning News found.
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... afety-flaw
(EU users will need a VPN to access this)

Further quotes from the article:
Records show that a captain who flies the Max 8 complained in November that it was "unconscionable" that the company and federal authorities allowed pilots to fly the planes without adequate training or fully disclosing information about how its systems were different from those on previous 737 models.

And:
U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, who leads a Senate subcommittee overseeing aviation, said in a statement Tuesday that U.S. authorities should ground the planes.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 09:06Post
Another source, doesn't sound a lot better, though:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pilot ... ar-BBUGJmB

In one report, an airline captain said that immediately after putting the plane on autopilot, the co-pilot called out "Descending," followed by an audio cockpit warning, "Don't sink, don't sink!"

...

On another flight, the co-pilot said that seconds after engaging the autopilot, the nose pitched downward and the plane began descending at 1,200 to 1,500 feet (365 to 460 meters) per minute. As in the other flight, the plane's low-altitude-warning system issued an audio warning. The captain disconnected autopilot, and the plane began to climb.

The pilots talked it over later, "but can't think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively," the co-pilot recounted.

...

A third pilot complained that Boeing had not explained changes to the plane's automation to pilots.

"I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?" the pilot wrote. "The Flight Manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient."


These reports suggest a problem with the autopilot, much rather than with the MCAS, though, which isn't active when the autopilot is engaged.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 09:10Post
Looking at the departures board in HEL right now, Norwegian seem to be coping quite well. The Gran Canaria flight is delayed by 5 hours, but everything else is on time as far out out the board goes.
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 13 Mar 19, 12:02Post
JLAmber wrote:That's going to hurt them, I can see Boeing speaking to a lot of lawyers in the near future.

"But WE didn't ground them! Sue EASA!"
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.

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