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Ethiopian B737 MAX 8 Crashes On Departure

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tangoscar 21 Mar 19, 13:50Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html

Maybe a piece of the what-all-went-wrong-puzzle ...

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Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 21 Mar 19, 16:09Post
AC-tech123 wrote:I have been an Aircraft Maintenance Technician for 35 Yrs, About the 737 Max8, because of the size of the new engines, they had to be mounted higher and forward of the wing. Now can anyone tell me how that would make the nose of the A/C to raise it, when you put a weigh fwd it makes the nose go down, I know this because every time I step on the scale the weight has to go fwd to lower the bar! Maybe the extra thrust causes it, I think they are adding to many extra sections of fuselage behind the Wing.



As I understand it, at certain AoA, the large engines provide lift given their positioning, which can make an untenable situation worse.
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 21 Mar 19, 16:30Post
tangoscar wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html

Maybe a piece of the what-all-went-wrong-puzzle ...


All those options do is make an already safe airplane safer. {duck}
DXing 22 Mar 19, 01:18Post
My money still says when all is said and down the report will boil down to pilot error...failure to disconnect the auto trim after repeated uncommanded nose down inputs. There will be several contributing factors to each crash. But in the end the fact remains, as mentioned above, there have been procedures in place for decades on what to do if trim cannot be maintained using the automation or if the trim goes to runaway.

Zak wrote:
DXing wrote:You don't see "both". You only see one. If the primary faults, the other takes over with an associated EICAS message.

Sorry, "you" in that case didn't refer to the pilot, but to the computer. How can the primary decide it is faulting, when there is only 1 other reference. It might as well be the backup system that's running on faulty data.

You can check which is right using the standby airspeed and artificial horizons. Nothing is single sourced.
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
HT-ETNW 22 Mar 19, 06:24Post
Garuda Indonesia seems to be the first airline to cancel orders for B737 MAX 8.
One airframe has been delivered to GA so far, the remainder of 49 deliveries (valued at more than €4bn list price) has been canceled. The future of the single airframe in GA's fleet is uncertain, but is expected to leave the fleet.
-HT

Source in German language
Use your time wisely; remember that today is the first day of the rest of your life.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 22 Mar 19, 06:34Post
...and in English: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47662967
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
paul mcallister 23 Mar 19, 02:46Post
It would seem the FBI maybe investigating the MAX8 certification.
I am not sure what to make of this.Anyone else heard about it?

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... Vuo71RfUDo
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 25 Mar 19, 21:35Post
Thinking about this some more, it's funny how some other safety authorities are suddenly all shocked - shocked, I tell you! - that the FAA not only dropped the ball but gave it to Boeing to look after. It's not like Southwest weren't spanked after getting real cosy with some of their FAA inspectors in the recent past. Much easier to close your eyes, cross out FAA, and scribble EASA than to ask awkward questions?

I know the FAA originally had the conflicting goals of enforcing aviation safety and promoting aviation, but I thought the latter was long gone.

The former, too, apparently. {duck}
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 26 Mar 19, 20:59Post
A Southwest 737 MAX 8 (N8712L) suffered problems shortly after takeoff from MCO today. The aircraft was on a ferry flight to VCV.

The speed and altitude graph shows that the aircraft lost and regained altitude after passing through 2,000 ft. The crew reported engine problems and returned to MCO.



https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#1ff0449a
Yes, the new EU copyright directive is that stupid.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 27 Mar 19, 00:23Post
AvHerald now has this one, sounds like an engine failure:
https://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c5e38ab&opt=0
Yes, the new EU copyright directive is that stupid.
IFEMaster (Project Dark Overlord & Founding Member) 27 Mar 19, 21:19Post
MCAS code patch details appeared on Twitter today:

https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status ... 4351162369
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein
vikkyvik 04 Apr 19, 02:05Post
Well this gets more and more interesting:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/damaged ... d=62139860
JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 04 Apr 19, 11:59Post
That makes for grim reading. Looks like they fought the aircraft all the way down, repeatedly disengaging the faulty MCAS system only to be overridden each time. A previous report suggests it's a three man job to disengage the system in time to avert a crash: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/20/asia ... index.html

And to think there's talk of pilot-less airliners in the next 10-15 years. No thanks!
A million great ideas...
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 04 Apr 19, 13:03Post
From what I learned about MCAS so far, if you disengage it by manually trimming the aircraft, it will engage again after 5 seconds. The system receives full authority again, even if you have not entirely corrected the trim setting yet.

The only chance to survive this is by disconnecting the auto trim via a kill switch. This will not deactivate MCAS, but MCAS "cannot reach" (in lack of better words) the stab anymore.

This was the documented procedure for a trim runaway, but not for an MCAS failure. As a trim runaway is usually detected by a continuous trim change, rather than recurring single movements, they may not have worked the trim runaway checklist.

However, IIRC, this was advised after the LionAir crash, and the Ethiopian crew was supposed to have received the message.

It was still not in the MCAS documentation, though, which is likely to bite Boeing in the behind.

But that's all speculation until a full report is available, and we will know what "followed all steps correctly, as per the documentation" means in practice.
Yes, the new EU copyright directive is that stupid.
Queso (netAirspace ATC Tower Chief & Founding Member) 04 Apr 19, 15:22Post
What happened to training pilots for stall recognition, and letting them pilot the plane?

I know this is an overly-simplistic way of looking at it, but MCAS has now killed 300 people, it should be decided if it's worth having, or waiting to implement after it is fully tested and proven to be perfected. REM out those lines in the code that call for it and let pilots fly the planes for now.
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Zak (netAirspace FAA) 04 Apr 19, 21:46Post
The preliminary report is out. And unless I misread it, it's spooky.

They did call for a stab trim cut-out, and executed it. It was even the unexperienced FO who made the call, and the CA confirmed it.

After cutting the stab trim, MCAS issued another trim command, but it was not executed.

They then attempted to manually re-trim the aircraft, which initially didn't seem to work.

And shortly before they lost the aircraft, there was another MCAS stab trim command. That one was executed. It came 5 seconds after their last manual trim input.

The report does not mention that the earlier stab trim cut-out had been reversed. Unless it's missing a detail (or I am), this would imply that MCAS was able to fatally adjust the trim despite the stab trim cut-off having been executed.

Link to the report: http://www.ecaa.gov.et/documents/20435/ ... af1ee17f3e

AvHerald has the transcript as well: http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a/0022&opt=0
Yes, the new EU copyright directive is that stupid.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 04 Apr 19, 22:13Post
Under the light of this preliminary report, it's also helpful to revisit the EAD issued after the LionAir crash, and compare it to the Ethiopian report:

https://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/2018-23- ... 18-23-51_1

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... wa-453443/
Yes, the new EU copyright directive is that stupid.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 05 Apr 19, 09:24Post
Zak wrote:The report does not mention that the earlier stab trim cut-out had been reversed. Unless it's missing a detail (or I am), this would imply that MCAS was able to fatally adjust the trim despite the stab trim cut-off having been executed.

I just learned that the stab trim switch position isn't recorded by the FDR. So chances are they did change its position shortly before the final and fatal auto trim command that was issued by MCAS.

But the whole data suggests that there was a massive malfunction of the FCC, that lead to almost all flight parameters being out of sync (including speed and altitude, that are not determined via the AoA sensor), resulting in a stick shaker immediately after liftoff.

A rather strange detail is that the CA attempted to engage the autopilot, despite the stick shaker warning. They also hadn't given very much manual trim input when they called out that manual trim isn't working. From all I heard, correcting the wrong MCAS input requires an heavy amount of spinning the trim wheel. They may have underestimated the required input in the stressful environment, which may have led to the decision to reactivate auto trim.

So there seems to be a human factor involved here. They might have had a chance if they had fought the trim wheel harder and had kept auto-trim disengaged.

But this still doesn't answer the question why the FCC failed, leading to MCAS insisting on crashing the aircraft.

Boeing meanwhile admitted that there they identified a second software problem. They call it 'minor', whereas the FAA classifies it as 'critical to flight safety'.
Yes, the new EU copyright directive is that stupid.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 05 Apr 19, 09:37Post
Zak wrote:Boeing meanwhile admitted that there they identified a second software problem. They call it 'minor', whereas the FAA classifies it as 'critical to flight safety'.

They're all grounded, so same thing, right? {boxed}

Didn't one crew accidentally hit upon the tactic of lowering a stage of flap to disable MCAS?
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
airtrainer 05 Apr 19, 09:44Post
Press release from ET:

https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corpo ... test-press
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miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 05 Apr 19, 09:53Post
Looks like the AoA sensors are the culprits...
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 05 Apr 19, 19:45Post
This is not the initial info I was expecting.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 06 Apr 19, 17:35Post
Boeing is temporarily cutting production of its best-selling 737 airliner in the continuing fall-out from crashes in Ethiopia and Indonesia.

Production will drop from 52 planes a month to 42 from mid-April, Boeing has said in a statement.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47834556
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 06 Apr 19, 23:54Post
ShanwickOceanic wrote:
Boeing is temporarily cutting production of its best-selling 737 airliner in the continuing fall-out from crashes in Ethiopia and Indonesia.

Production will drop from 52 planes a month to 42 from mid-April, Boeing has said in a statement.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47834556


I was rather wondering where they intended to put new, grounded aircraft at a rate of even 20 a month . . . . with their own extension on the time to fix the problem.
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JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 07 Apr 19, 18:26Post
ANCFlyer wrote:
ShanwickOceanic wrote:
Boeing is temporarily cutting production of its best-selling 737 airliner in the continuing fall-out from crashes in Ethiopia and Indonesia.

Production will drop from 52 planes a month to 42 from mid-April, Boeing has said in a statement.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47834556


I was rather wondering where they intended to put new, grounded aircraft at a rate of even 20 a month . . . . with their own extension on the time to fix the problem.


There's pretty much no room at RNT, PAE has a little more but requires a lot of shuffling to fit all the finished airframes under normal circumstances. I guess a lot of 737s first flights away from Boeing facilities will be to the desert.
A million great ideas...

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