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WN And Hawaii . . . .

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ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 08 Feb 19, 09:54Post
Day before yesterday WN flew from OAK to HNL with a relatively empty 738 as a navigation, etc., proving flight for their upcoming Hawaii service. No news is good news I suspect as I heard/saw nothing of the result.

I ran across this a few minutes ago. WN interisland. Thought it might warrant discussion along with the WN mainland flights.

https://beatofhawaii.com/southwest-hawaii-inter-island/


I find it interesting that it appears WN paid attention to AQ trials and tribulations with nextGen 73s and their interisland high frequency flight engine issues. . . .

That is the only thing I think WN thought about. Hawaiian's are fiercely loyal to HA. My opinion, it will take a LOT of work for WN to make any headway against them in that market. It almost certainly will not be a productive O&D market for them.

Opinions? Comments?
Armor. M60A1, M60A3, M1, M1A1, Master Gunner, CSM - Best Job I Ever Had

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IFEMaster (Project Dark Overlord & Founding Member) 08 Feb 19, 22:57Post
I wonder if it's Hawaiians that they would be targeting with such a service, or if it'd be more of the "Fly Southwest the entire way" kind of package service. With flights from CA to four islands, is there a regular enough world where, for example, passengers would fly from to mainland to Lihue, use SWA for hopping between the islands as desired, and fly back to the mainland from Kona?

According the article they're positioning 8 aircraft there. What are the highest load inter-island routes? Are they just gonna load up on one or two high traffic routes and try and beat HA by sheer price war?

Interesting to see how this one shakes out.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein
ShyFlyer (Founding Member) 09 Feb 19, 01:07Post
I like WN. I like 737s, especially with the new Sky Interior. I will not fly WN to Hawaii. That's too long a flight to spend in an economy seat.
The Original Peruvian Outlaw ©
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 09 Feb 19, 02:16Post
IFEMaster wrote:I wonder if it's Hawaiians that they would be targeting with such a service, or if it'd be more of the "Fly Southwest the entire way" kind of package service. With flights from CA to four islands, is there a regular enough world where, for example, passengers would fly from to mainland to Lihue, use SWA for hopping between the islands as desired, and fly back to the mainland from Kona?

According the article they're positioning 8 aircraft there. What are the highest load inter-island routes? Are they just gonna load up on one or two high traffic routes and try and beat HA by sheer price war?

Interesting to see how this one shakes out.



Re-Read the article. They are NOT positioning 8 aircraft there, there will be no WN metal assigned there. There WILL be 8 WN aircraft that have the ETOPS ability to do the Hawaii trips. The intent is to, example, fly to HNL then short hop to OGG then back to the mainland. There will be no "island hopping", no infrastructure for WN will be there save a few employees, everything else will be shopped out, just like AS does,
Armor. M60A1, M60A3, M1, M1A1, Master Gunner, CSM - Best Job I Ever Had
Mark 09 Feb 19, 03:20Post
Yeah, it's a long way to fly in an economy seat. But, it IS a WN B738 economy seat. At least I can sit in one for four hours without my ass or legs going to sleep. In my nurse's mind, I thought for sure that I threw a leg clot 45 minutes into my most recent DL B712 flight from MSP to AUS. Whose idea was it to think that a half-inch of padding was good enough for passenger health and return business?
Queso (netAirspace ATC Tower Chief & Founding Member) 09 Feb 19, 04:20Post
ANCFlyer wrote:Hawaiian's are fiercely loyal to HA. My opinion, it will take a LOT of work for WN to make any headway against them in that market. It almost certainly will not be a productive O&D market for them.

Think about this for a minute though...

Let Hawaiians have HA. There are a LOT more non-Hawaiians who go to Hawaii on vacation than there are Hawaiians who go to the mainland for vacation. ;)

Another way of seeing it: WN has a LOT more loyal customers than HA has.

WN will do just fine in Hawaii, I'm sure of that. Waiting for them to add ANC or maybe even FAI.
This is a Signature Line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 09 Feb 19, 12:17Post
These birds will need to be ETOPS-certified, but I assume there's more to it. Life rafts? Don't want to entrust your survival out there to a fart-encrusted seat-cushion.
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
For it is the number of a man; and its number is One hundred threescore and twelve.
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 10 Feb 19, 02:13Post
ShanwickOceanic wrote:These birds will need to be ETOPS-certified, but I assume there's more to it. Life rafts? Don't want to entrust your survival out there to a fart-encrusted seat-cushion.

WN has completed the proving flights, the aircraft are over-water equipped.
Armor. M60A1, M60A3, M1, M1A1, Master Gunner, CSM - Best Job I Ever Had
DXing 13 Feb 19, 16:35Post
ANCFlyer wrote:
Re-Read the article. They are NOT positioning 8 aircraft there, there will be no WN metal assigned there. There WILL be 8 WN aircraft that have the ETOPS ability to do the Hawaii trips. The intent is to, example, fly to HNL then short hop to OGG then back to the mainland. There will be no "island hopping", no infrastructure for WN will be there save a few employees, everything else will be shopped out, just like AS does,


I hope they don't choose OGG as their return point. High probability they will have to block some seats if they do. Short runway and tons of etops fuel can make for a quickly weight restricted aircraft. There's no relief either, it's 180 ETOPS or nothing. Straight back from HNL or an out and then back to HNL then to the mainland would make more sense. Would eliminate the inter airline connection. The problem then becomes tank limits and not MTOW.

I wonder if they will face any weight restrictions in the winter? That's when the 737's face their biggest challenges. Not sure what the ZFW difference a full y aircraft verses a j/y is. Certainly going to add more bag weight, but does that alone outweigh the j seats?
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 13 Feb 19, 17:32Post
DXing wrote:
I hope they don't choose OGG as their return point. High probability they will have to block some seats if they do. Short runway and tons of etops fuel can make for a quickly weight restricted aircraft. There's no relief either, it's 180 ETOPS or nothing. Straight back from HNL or an out and then back to HNL then to the mainland would make more sense. Would eliminate the inter airline connection. The problem then becomes tank limits and not MTOW.



AS doesn't have an issue on the west coast/Alaska flights with their 738s in/out of HNL, LIH, OGG, KOA . . .

WN is talking about HNL-OGG (or LIH or KOA) and then back to the mainland. I don't see why they simply don't hitch a ride with HA for interisland, but it's WN. Who knows.
Armor. M60A1, M60A3, M1, M1A1, Master Gunner, CSM - Best Job I Ever Had
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 13 Feb 19, 17:46Post
Off Topic but my folks are on Oahu right now...

Flew out on a DL 739 (assuming ER) out of PDX to HNL.

My dad questioned the crap out of "How in the hell am I making to Hawaii on a 737?"

Of course...the last time he flew on a 737 it was a 732 out of HLN to SLC. :))
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
DXing 13 Feb 19, 19:26Post
ANCFlyer wrote:AS doesn't have an issue on the west coast/Alaska flights with their 738s in/out of HNL, LIH, OGG, KOA . . .

WN is talking about HNL-OGG (or LIH or KOA) and then back to the mainland. I don't see why they simply don't hitch a ride with HA for interisland, but it's WN. Who knows.


Unless you are watching day to day operations I don't see how that can be an accurate statement. I've dispatched more than my fair share of flights using 738 and 739 aircraft that had to be weight restricted out of LIH or OGG due to MTOW, winds, and or enroute weather. Typically on the way back from the islands, I can use Las Vegas as an alternate if I wish, doesn't add a drop of gas since the ETOPS add fuel becomes useable within 60 minutes of the mainland.

In winter time the winds can make flights from the mainland to the islands problematic. The ETOPS add can be almost an hour or more. I've tanked out many a flight. There is only one solution after that, reduce payload. Many non revs have seen a flight go out with empty seats.
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
PA110 (Founding Member) 03 Mar 19, 00:07Post
ANCFlyer wrote:Hawaiian's are fiercely loyal to HA. My opinion, it will take a LOT of work for WN to make any headway against them in that market.


Hawaiians are loyal to HA, but only to a point. They bitch and moan incessantly about the high cost of inter-island travel. Before the collapse of AQ, there was some competition in the inter-island market. If WN starts a fare war that lowers inter-island rates for locals, they will be happy. They may still fly HA as their first choice, but they'll ultimately go with the lowest fare.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 03 Mar 19, 13:26Post
PA110 wrote:
ANCFlyer wrote:Hawaiian's are fiercely loyal to HA. My opinion, it will take a LOT of work for WN to make any headway against them in that market.


Hawaiians are loyal to HA, but only to a point. They bitch and moan incessantly about the high cost of inter-island travel. Before the collapse of AQ, there was some competition in the inter-island market. If WN starts a fare war that lowers inter-island rates for locals, they will be happy. They may still fly HA as their first choice, but they'll ultimately go with the lowest fare.

If WN could go head to head (almost flight for flight, like AQ did) with HA, they might have a shot. For three or four daily interisland HNL-OGG/KOA flights they may offer, I can't see WN making an impact that will anyone notice . . . .
Armor. M60A1, M60A3, M1, M1A1, Master Gunner, CSM - Best Job I Ever Had
Fumanchewd 05 Mar 19, 17:54Post
I love Hawaii (where its not crowded) and I love WN.

As a matter of fact I'm trying to get on with them right now.

That they are adding a direct PHX flight, is great to compete with AA, I don't like AA at all.

I do think that the airlines have been gouging Hawaii, PHX to OGG flights have been sticking around $500 forever with occasional sales at $450. With WN's announcement about a year ago I've seen the prices drop quite a bit.

Why is a 5 hour flight to the East Coast often $300 RT, but the 5-6 hour flight to Hawaii often $500? Sure, you can state that flight is about 700 miles longer, fuel and hotel rooms for the crew is more expensive in Hawaii, but not to the point of $200 per passenger. I can only think of gouging. Hawaii is popular and when there is little competition they gouge a bit. I believe with competition PHX-OGG prices will stick between $300-$400.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
ShyFlyer (Founding Member) 05 Mar 19, 19:06Post
Fumanchewd wrote:I can only think of gouging

That's not gouging.
The Original Peruvian Outlaw ©
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 05 Mar 19, 19:21Post
Sounds more like 'supply and demand'... *shrugs
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
Fumanchewd 06 Mar 19, 00:10Post
ShyFlyer wrote:
Fumanchewd wrote:I can only think of gouging

That's not gouging.


How so? Keep in mind that that is the only reasonable transportation available to Hawaii.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
ShyFlyer (Founding Member) 06 Mar 19, 01:04Post
Fumanchewd wrote:How so?

Price gouging would be charging fares that are greatly above and beyond what is considered fair. Your example ($300 r/t east coast vs $500 r/t HI) is not really drastically different. Gouging would be, say, charging $4000 for the return portion of a R/T ticket.
The Original Peruvian Outlaw ©
Fumanchewd 06 Mar 19, 07:08Post
ShyFlyer wrote:
Fumanchewd wrote:How so?

Price gouging would be charging fares that are greatly above and beyond what is considered fair. Your example ($300 r/t east coast vs $500 r/t HI) is not really drastically different. Gouging would be, say, charging $4000 for the return portion of a R/T ticket.


Really? What is the exact percentage that constitutes gouging? There is none. I contend that in this case, that is a 40% increase above fair market value, it is gouging. When a company inflates market prices above fair market value for profitable gains in inelastic economic situations, it is gouging. It is often used in times of emergencies, but doesn't have to be by definition.

In this case, access to Hawaii is only limited to air travel (ship travel is not reasonable unless for long leisure)- it is an important and vital factor for Hawaii's economy, for medical issues, and for a whole myriad of important community issues. Air line travel for Hawaiians is inelastic and necessary. I don't believe that calling it gouging is an overstatement when airlines are artificially inflating prices on something so vital to a community. Now watch Hawaii airfares stay under 40% of what it was 3 years ago or more despite overall costs increasing.

I don't even think gouging should be illegal, but call it what it is.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
ShyFlyer (Founding Member) 06 Mar 19, 23:08Post
Fumanchewd wrote:What is the exact percentage that constitutes gouging? There is none.

I never said there was a percentage. Hawaii is more popular than the US East coast, so it's more expensive to go there. Supply and demand. It's really not that difficult.

Still feel gouged? Then don't buy the fare. Save it for someone who would love to pay it.

For reference, flying out of DEN, I'd pay just over $600 RT. Same price if I wanted to do REK.
The Original Peruvian Outlaw ©
Fumanchewd 06 Mar 19, 23:52Post
ShyFlyer wrote:
Fumanchewd wrote:What is the exact percentage that constitutes gouging? There is none.

I never said there was a percentage. Hawaii is more popular than the US East coast, so it's more expensive to go there. Supply and demand. It's really not that difficult.

Still feel gouged? Then don't buy the fare. Save it for someone who would love to pay it.

For reference, flying out of DEN, I'd pay just over $600 RT. Same price if I wanted to do REK.


I think that you are missing the point that Hawaii is not Denver. People have to leave by airline, you don't in Denver. This is why it is gouging.

I'll leave the silly condescending comment about not having to buy the airfare alone. It isn't even relevant as I was commenting that I am happier with prices going down now.

Get your head together man.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
ShyFlyer (Founding Member) 07 Mar 19, 01:05Post
Fumanchewd wrote:Get your head together man.

You're the one complaining about being "gouged" on airfare.

Fumanchewd wrote:Hawaii is not Denver

Really? Hadn't noticed.

Fumanchewd wrote:People have to leave by airline, you don't in Denver.

Irrelevant. Hawaii is a very popular tourist destination, it's what happens.. The airfares to get there and back are quite normal and fair. You just don't like them.
The Original Peruvian Outlaw ©
DXing 08 Mar 19, 00:49Post
Fumanchewd wrote:
I think that you are missing the point that Hawaii is not Denver. People have to leave by airline, you don't in Denver. This is why it is gouging.

I'll leave the silly condescending comment about not having to buy the airfare alone. It isn't even relevant as I was commenting that I am happier with prices going down now.

Get your head together man.


And Denver is no where close the east coast so air travel is still the easiest form of travel between the two. If you aren't in a hurry to get to Hawaii there are cruise lines you can take.

As ShyFlyer said, Hawaii is a popular tourist destination and as such, fares are higher. Check out the prices to Tahiti. Are Tahitians being gouged?
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
Fumanchewd 08 Mar 19, 09:18Post
DXing wrote:
Fumanchewd wrote:
I think that you are missing the point that Hawaii is not Denver. People have to leave by airline, you don't in Denver. This is why it is gouging.

I'll leave the silly condescending comment about not having to buy the airfare alone. It isn't even relevant as I was commenting that I am happier with prices going down now.

Get your head together man.


And Denver is no where close the east coast so air travel is still the easiest form of travel between the two. If you aren't in a hurry to get to Hawaii there are cruise lines you can take.

As ShyFlyer said, Hawaii is a popular tourist destination and as such, fares are higher. Check out the prices to Tahiti. Are Tahitians being gouged?


This argument baffles me. Hawaii is a tourist destination but they don't get as many pax as say EWR or PHL, destinations close in distance for my comparison, but considerably less cost. The tourist destination is irrelevant. The entire state needs to utilize air travel to travel, no a cruise ship is not an option 99% of the time.

As for Tahiti price gouging? I'm sorry is there a comparable destination where someone has to transfer multiple flights and travel over 20 hours that I can compare prices with? This analogy isn't just no good, but is idiotic.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

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